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4670amacleodThat's what I've been waiting for..8-Jan-10 14:02
4669PekrnVidia Tegra 2 introduction - well done, nVidia + ARM! 10:22
4668ReichartJohn, good stuff... I have always had strong issues with Wikipedia... the same listed here, and a few more as well. It works "well enough" for most things, but yeah, it is corrupt...27-Dec-09 4:46
4667RobertWikipedia: Interesting... I'm going to cross-check if local chapters a better suited for a donation26-Dec-09 11:54
4666GeomolIf you use Wikipedia sometimes (or are interesting in ClimateGate), read this:

And "Top 10 Reasons Not to Donate to Wikipedia"

23-Dec-09 23:44
4665Gabrielewell, they say you can just hg clone etherpad22-Dec-09 10:40
4664Gabrielebut maybe, they just created the space for the project and files are not there yet?22-Dec-09 10:39
4663Gabriele 10:39
4662Gabrieleit has been released already afaik.22-Dec-09 10:39
4661HenrikHey, that's quite nice. Easier to use than Google Wave.21-Dec-09 15:36

Etherpad going to be released as open source.

21-Dec-09 15:31

Another platform to port R3 to.

13-Dec-09 17:58
4658KajAnd people didn't know 0 from o on a keyboard :-)13-Dec-09 17:45
4657Maximaahhh this once was "Tech News" those where the good days of internet. :-D

a few funny exerpts: "Some video clips - and at least one full-length video movies - are already available on the network."

it was still a marxist entity: "It does not take kindly to unsolicited advertisements; use electronic mail to promote your product and you are likely to be inundated with hate mail "

a different scale... that of thousands: "There are no TV Guides to sort through the 5,000 discussion groups or the 2,5OO electronic newsletters or the tens of thousands of computers with files to share."

13-Dec-09 3:09

techcrunch's tablet ... law suits already flying around.

11-Dec-09 23:13
4655KajThat seemed to be pretty much their plan. We're in for another good legal soap opera5-Dec-09 15:35
4654HenrikThis one states that the device will be launched anyway by the tech partner who ran off with the device.5-Dec-09 8:43
4653Grahamsame information as on tuesday above ?5-Dec-09 8:40

No more Crunchpad, or marketing ploy?

5-Dec-09 7:56
4651Graham8.8.8.8 .. Chinese lucky numbers :)4-Dec-09 19:43
4650Grahamopendns is quite slow for us in the pacific ... wonder if this will be better.4-Dec-09 19:40
4649GeomolWell, I will try it for a while and see, how it goes. Thanks for explanations.4-Dec-09 18:25
4648KajAlso: "Note, however, that because nameservers geolocate according to the resolver's IP address rather than the user's, Google Public DNS has the same limitations as other open DNS services: that is, the server to which a user is referred might be farther away than one to which a local DNS provider would have referred. This could cause a slower browsing experience for certain sites."4-Dec-09 18:23
4647HenrikYes, they admit that. The only protection is that Google promises not to do anything with it, but who knows.4-Dec-09 18:19
4646KajPrivacy, I guess4-Dec-09 18:16
4645GeomolThanks, Ashley! Are there any concerns using Google public DNS?4-Dec-09 17:47
4644AshleyGoogle Public DNS: 12:23
4643RobertNice, but 6000 is quite a lot.2-Dec-09 11:56
4642Will 0:30
4641Maximfor me LLVM support for REBOL is usefull marketing. even if cyphre's compiler is better. :-)1-Dec-09 19:27
4640GeomolSo, FreeBSD and Cray are using LLVM too. It seems more and more interesting.1-Dec-09 16:52

Lots of new information from a developer meeting about LLVM.

1-Dec-09 9:09
4638GrahamCould probably use my tablet like this :)1-Dec-09 7:20
4637ReichartVery sad, and more sad, this is the most common reality of technology (esp. hardware).1-Dec-09 7:04
4636AdrianSSame here - was planning on getting one.1-Dec-09 3:43
4635amacleodSad...I had hopes for this device1-Dec-09 2:00
4634GrahamSorry ...

Still this does give us a glimpse on how we might use a browser OS ...

30-Nov-09 22:50
4633Graham 22:44
4632GrahamBrowser OS touch driven tablet .. now deceased due to internal faults.30-Nov-09 22:43

the recently deceased crunchpad ... a browser OS touch driven tablet.

30-Nov-09 22:43
4630KajYes, that's the recent stuff30-Nov-09 16:15
4629PeterWoodPerosnally, I'm not convinced by these brain shrinking theories. I quote from Tony Buzan (The Mind Mapping Man) :

"Recent research has shown that in a normal, healthy brain (that is, one in a healthy, aerobically fit body in which the brain is used well) there is no apparent loss of brain cells; only a growth in the interconnections, and therefore multiple intelligences of that brain!"

"As the 20th Century ended, biologists at Princeton University came up witht the discovery ... that parts of the human brain can generate thousands of new brain cells, everyday"

I can't find the original scientific reference - Google only guided me to

30-Nov-09 9:17
4628HenrikMy spelling was better when I was a kid, but I think the older you get, your brain gets filled with all sorts of junk, diminishing your capacity to see the right answer in simplistic matters like spelling, or perhaps you care less about it, because you realize how important or non-important it is to get right, saving brain power. I'm a way better programmer now, more thanks to various thinking techniques, than to specific learning about algorithms. I'm better at leaving a problem alone when I know it will take days to solve, if I bruteforce it. "Wiser birds" and such. I think if I went back to university and took the same courses again that I did back then (but have forgotten all about), I would do a lot better in them. Today in my 30's, I feel my brain is developing a whole lot more than in my 20's. Even my short-term memory is improving.30-Nov-09 8:40
4627GeomolI more often find it harder to find words now than 20 years ago. But I know more words today, so it's mayby logical. Languages never was my big thing, and my english really sucked, especially when I was a teen. I don't understand, what they mean by "mental faculties reach a peak in one's early 20s". Sure, if they measure on people, who don't exercise their brain after school-years, then they'll see that. It's the same, if they measure muscular abilities for someone, who used to do physical exercise and then became lazy.30-Nov-09 8:14
4626KajAlso, the deterioration of the brain is not the only that happens. It was found recently that neurons are not static after that age, but keep growing30-Nov-09 1:00
4625KajBut the start of the breakdown of the body in general around 20 is well known30-Nov-09 0:57
4624KajThat you get dumber starting in your twenties, yes30-Nov-09 0:56
4623GrahamEh? I thought you wrote about that it was FUD30-Nov-09 0:34
4622Kaj27 Is around the age that most people would have had most of their children throughout history, so it makes a lot of sense that evolutionary selection wouldn't have cared much after that30-Nov-09 0:33
4621GrahamClearly skills that require training improve with time eg. programming.30-Nov-09 0:21
4620GrahamSee 0:20
4619Grahamthe two are not synomyous.29-Nov-09 23:46
4618Geomol"mental faculties reach a peak in one's early 20s" I don't think, that's true either. I can do many things better and faster now, than 20 years ago, when I was in my early 20ies. I can program a lot faster and with fewer errors now than back then. Now and then I try a computer game on my Amiga, that I haven't touched in 20 years. I can finish games now, I couldn't figure out back then. My reactions might be a bit slower now, even if I'm not really sure about that either. But I solve the puzzles better now. Many years of practise has also made me a better piano player now, than 20 years ago.

I don't know, where that saying come from, but I can't see it being true.

29-Nov-09 23:37
4617KajI think you only need to campaign if you DON'T want R3 on ARM :-)29-Nov-09 16:40
4616KajRT will have to port the R3 kernel to ARM, but I think it is inevitable29-Nov-09 16:39
4615amacleodPorts will be the domain of the community when the host code is released (except for those REBOL inc. considers musts)...I would love to se R3 running on ARM as they are nice, lowend, cheap devices that rebol apps would fit well29-Nov-09 15:27
4614jrichardsHi Oldes, I did submit something via feedback a couple of weeks ago. My thought in posting here was in hope of drumming up more support from some of you Rebol gurus in recognizing the importance of being in this marketplace.29-Nov-09 14:40
4613OldesBetter to ask Carl on R3 chat and or directly using feedback or submiting it as a wish on CC -> 14:32
4612jrichardsYou can find info on these devices at or I strongly believe that Rebol needs to be in this market. How difficult would it be to port Rebol to ARM running Linux? Wouldn't be nice to see Rebol Services running on these devices?29-Nov-09 13:58
4611jrichardsAbout two months ago I stumbled upon Tonido and the Tonido plug computer. I ordered a Tonido but then canceled the order because the application software supplied was not multi-user. I have recently ordered the Pogoplug which does appear to allow multiple users. Check it out.29-Nov-09 13:55
4610KajIt's indeed one of those FUD stories29-Nov-09 0:02
4609KajDoesn't matter, because you keep learning to use them better29-Nov-09 0:01
4608Maximat twenty IIRC the number of neurons stops increasing, peaks and then starts to decrease slowly.28-Nov-09 21:27
4607Izkata"mental faculties reach a peak in one's early 20s" - I've always wondered if that's true, or coincidental - that used to be around the age people would have gotten used to their first job after they're done with high school. (Here in the US, at least) Now there's college, which may push that age back a bit...28-Nov-09 19:26
4606Maximmusic is one of (if not the) best brain training things you can do. it forces every part of the brain to work together and in sync. senses, reasoning, coordination, memory, reflexes. A study showed that adults only learn musical instruments a bit slower than children. its the practice that's the good part.

its also one of the best anti-stress things out there.

28-Nov-09 15:57
4605GeomolThe brain can be trained like a muscle. The more one uses the brain to solve all kinds of puzzles, eye-hand reflexes, etc. the better one become at using the brain overall, also in different situations. I think, games can help a lot in exercising the brain.28-Nov-09 14:00
4604Grahamwell, mental faculties reach a peak in one's early 20s ... so anytime after that would be appropriate.28-Nov-09 9:23
4603HenrikI think it can also help aging people, if the games are appropriate for them.28-Nov-09 9:14
4602HenrikNow we're hunting and killing paperclips in our cubicles. I think I little gaming doesn't hurt. :-)28-Nov-09 9:08
4601Grahammankind has spent millennia developing physical skills .. tracking, hunting, killing ... I hope PS3 doesn't ruin the next generation!28-Nov-09 9:05
4600HenrikHe still asks for help though, when doing Windows stuff. :-)28-Nov-09 9:02
4599HenrikHe seems to have fine health and ok social skills. He's quickly becoming one of the smartest kids in the near family.28-Nov-09 9:02
4598Grahamhow is his health though ? how much running, jumping, social interactivity etc is he getting while developing those wonderful keyboard skills?28-Nov-09 9:00
4597HenrikWatching my brother's 9-year old playing action games is amazing. He can move faster than I can keep up, which I never had the opportunity to at that age. I'm sure he gains a lot of knowledge in the area of quick thinking along with reflexes.28-Nov-09 8:57
4596GrahamMy daughter has a part time job at the city library shelving books. She's the fastest shelver the library has .... they have to shelve all sorts of book sizes. I told her its because she spent years practising with tetris :)28-Nov-09 8:52
4595Henrikreflexes?28-Nov-09 8:46
4594Grahamnot much you can learn from tetris28-Nov-09 3:32
4593Maximdepends if its GTA or WoW... not sure ;-)28-Nov-09 2:41
4592KajHow evil, kids playing games. They're not going to learn anything from play ;-)27-Nov-09 19:47
4591Henriknot just from a software standpoint, but from a physical standpoint.27-Nov-09 7:52
4590Henrikordinary laptops are horrible for school use27-Nov-09 7:50
4589sqlabThere was a large scale test project in France for 8 years. Every pupil in the Department Landes got a laptop. The costs were around 45Mio. . The project is regarded as failed, as the pupils used the laptop only for gaming. At least some newspapers wrote that.27-Nov-09 7:11
4588Maximbut by chance they where XO .... cause at least the kids had fun using them even if the adults around them had no clue how to use them ;-)26-Nov-09 23:40
4587Maximany sane person would have implemented the idea progressively. There are hundreds of way this progression can be tailored. but just massively dumbing little noisy plastic boxes at schools without any real plan... well, is just dumb :-)26-Nov-09 23:39
4586ChrisBut yes, the core point of retrofitting a semblence of structure contains a lot of painful hidden costs.26-Nov-09 23:32
4585ChrisI guess if you are going to drop in equipment like this, the XO is a good choice as you can still get benefits without a structure. Another possible advantage is that as there was no technological agenda (ie. not some tech company pushing), it allows some level of experimentation, allowing the best use for these machines to emerge - from the kids and teachers - instead of it being imposed.26-Nov-09 23:27
4584Maximthe best aspect of the programs for the schools probably was that every school was forced to have its network infrastructure upgraded, which would not have happened otherwise.26-Nov-09 23:07
4583MaximI was part of the school board for the elementary school where I live in and this kind of project would have been refused at the school. its wrong in every respect. every school is missing some amount of money, and when 5 million in cash is spent in such a random manner, unfortunately, kids loose in every way.

this kind of drastic change requires a top-down revisit of policy, structure, curriculum, teachers professionals, etc. people don't realized that individual schools often have to pay for a lot of details which school boards don't readily acknowledge.

who pays for the (usually costly) full/part time technician at every school. what happens in class when some laptops die, etc, etc.

One (rich) school in montreal did something similar by purchasing a (real) laptop for every 5th and 6th grader. Although the computers where school property.

By the time they arrived, they where integrated into every aspect of the school's daily operations. paper for all assignments was made illegal, educational games where pre-installed, and complemented the curriculum, every student was given training on some word editor, email, how to get, send assignments, and IIRC there was a school portal for the program, where kids could get/provide all they needed.

26-Nov-09 22:46
4582ChrisYes, and arguably the most difficult part is done, the distribution...26-Nov-09 21:59
4581HenrikSure there is. Just watch any Alan Kay video demoing the XO and see how well they can be used and how clever the software really is. They are just so different from your average laptop, there may be a strong requirement of retraining of teachers.26-Nov-09 21:58
4580ChrisIt seems incredible that they would go ahead and purchase all the machines without even a thought for how they'd be used, yet as they have been distributed, there does appear to be great potential in utilising them as educational tools...26-Nov-09 21:55
4579Chris'A Costly Lesson' - interesting article about Birmingham's (Alabama) decision to buy XO laptops for all school children grades 1 through 5 (originally 8) - I believe the first municipality in the developed world to attempt such a project:

It's hard to overstate the personalities involved in this story - the mayor involved was convicted only this month for taking bribes.

26-Nov-09 21:51
4578GabrielePetr, no, what I meant is people arguing about what the "real Amiga" is, and accusing each other of wasting precious effort.22-Nov-09 10:48
4577Maximbiodiversity is the sign of a thriving ecosystem.21-Nov-09 14:18
4576ChrisThat might be a good thing though - a tempering influence, not letting others go down a wrong path too quickly (a la Netscape).21-Nov-09 13:12
4575Jankoyes, IE is heavilly in the mix :) and these are no signs that this stardardised bytecode will happen anytime soon21-Nov-09 13:11
4574ChrisIn saying that, MS is still in the mix. So long as IE has a large corporate presence, and developers rely on their APIs, they are still going to have some directional influence. I think they've been an anchor that the web platform has been dragging along.21-Nov-09 13:08
4573Janko 13:07
4572Jankobtw .. firefox js engine and webkit (safari) has intermediate "bytecode" representation (each their own) to which language can compile too.. it's bad that Google chrome doesn't follow this but jits directly from JS to native assembler.21-Nov-09 13:07
4571Jankoyes, I agree, I am also not sure if it's good that html must do all + video + canvas + gl but this is where it's moving21-Nov-09 13:03
4570ChrisJanko, I agree - the web as a platform has endured all pretenders and is slowly and cumbersomely taking us forward. Flash for the most part is used as filler - for video containers, for 'interactivity' that is slowly being subsumed by html/css/js - but has always been an uncomfortable fit. HTML5 is, rightly or wrongly, the direction the web appears to be headed in.21-Nov-09 13:00
4569Jankoand if everything will mo to browser, even the webGL and stuff I surelly hope there will be some jitting bytecode standard to which javascript and other languages for browser could compile to21-Nov-09 12:31
4568JankoI have oppinion the winning "webapps" will be the ones that give the best in browser experience. Try using a whole website in flash / silverlight and tell me if youwon't go mad.. riht click doesn't work , scroll buttons work strangely, open in new tab doesn't work, things don't float etc... it's not only about what's the best it's also about what behaves as people are used too (in the browser at least) . So IMHO inthis regard a REBOL to javascript compiler would be better :)21-Nov-09 12:30
4567PekrJanko - I am not sure users do care nor distinguish, if some things runs as a plugin or as a JS app :-) It is just agenda of web developers, who try to kill stuff as Flash, Silverlight. R3's GUI might not be competition to web development, but it might have its place in some rich-apps development, embedded sphere, etc. I would not dismiss such potential ...21-Nov-09 12:23
4566PekrAnyone is free to do what he wants, I am supporting only the official distro. In current situation it is the only thing which makes sense. There was several cloning attempts in the past, some of them raised some expectations, and they failed to be finished/released. I don't know why I should waste my time with another clone. I mean - each of us have our own jobs, and if I have some free time, I am going to devote it to official distro ...21-Nov-09 12:21
4565ChrisWhy not let Boron go its way instead of castigating it's existence, see if it opens doors that we do not expect. Who's to say what is driving it forward...21-Nov-09 12:18
4564Jankoin the long run .. the flash / silverlight and other plugins might not survive.. it seems consensus is now to put video / canvas / even GL in the browser.. so "out of browser" experience will have less and less relevance in the browser.21-Nov-09 12:18
4563PekrWhich wave? General technological one?21-Nov-09 12:17
4562ChrisPetr, you can fix all the things that we did not do right in the past and that will be good. The question is, are we anticipating the next wave or still trying to catch the last one?21-Nov-09 12:14
4561Jankothe biggest general opurtunity these days for language is good concurrency / multicore stuff . GUI is moving to browser, but REBOL can do a lot (or more) on the server side / logic / bots ... etc21-Nov-09 12:12
4560PekrThe best thing would probably be to "use them" to our advantage. Web plugin is imo still strategic product, that will lower the barrier to give REBOL apps a try. Then we can see, if we can make some VID to web compiler ....21-Nov-09 12:10
4559PekrI know we need some Marketing plan, new website, etc. Carl is deeply thinking about those issues. The trouble is - how to make development any faster? Extensions will help. Would fully open-sourcing R3 magically bring many new developers? I doubt it. So what to do? A killer app? Which one?

We are "fighting" almost lost battle - Flash, Silverlight - even those will fight with AJAX and web stuff.

21-Nov-09 12:09
4558JankoIf I were in te youg days when I did many things for the sake of it I would love to help with peripherials R3, play with it etc .. but I am strictly coding to make something in this period and so so far R2 is the only R I can be interested in for now21-Nov-09 12:08
4557PekrChris - what do you mean?21-Nov-09 12:07
4556Jankothere must be a practical openess IMHO and that is very important, but exact licence of the kernell does not worry me21-Nov-09 12:04
4555Jankosuch people are still not in majority .. Java was free but not opensourced and people were using it, built other languages on top of JVM ..etc21-Nov-09 12:03
4554ChrisPetr, there are still plenty of opportunities to be missed.21-Nov-09 12:02
4553PekrR3 architecture tries to adress all of those issues. It is a new start. There is no REBOL (many ppl out there never heard of it) out there, so we might have some impact. The thing is, that there is many open-source maniacs, who will dismiss the product just because it is not open-sourced. I have some friends, who cry for open-sourced solutions, yet they are not able to fix C code ... fanatics ...21-Nov-09 12:01
4552JankoIMHO things have the highest chance of missing the trends by being locked / guarded too much / self contained and not "out there"21-Nov-09 12:00
4551PekrChris - yes, we missed probably many oportunities - no apache module, 'call and 'dll not being in free versions of R2 for so long time, slow development, bad deployment to other infrastructures, no open-source, bugs ...21-Nov-09 11:59
4550PekrIn fact, what Geomol and some other ppl claim is - that we wait very long, at that it would be nice to have some other option available. They are right in following aspects - we can't still help much with R3 development. So far it is still done by Carl.

But, that is not 100% true, just some 90% - we can help writing VID, networking protocols ... yet noone did it.

I can understand Geomol - when R3 was announced, it was supposed to be out in few months, whereas we are something like finishg fourth year of its development. It was promissed long time ago, that there will be most of the R3 to be open-sourced. It did not happened yet, and some ppl might question, if it will ever happen.

The other group, properly and daily following R3 development, asks for patience, as we are really close. Latest Twitter message as well as month update shows, that Carl is working on Host code, in order to be released to few developers. Carl also reported succesfull separation of kernel and host two days ago.

So ... make up your own conclusion :-)

21-Nov-09 11:57
4549ChrisI guess Gabriele's alluding to that they all missed the bigger trends and faded to irrelevence.21-Nov-09 11:57
4548Jankothat's illustrative21-Nov-09 11:55
4547HenrikCommodore management was so spectacularly bad in the end, that it could have been on purpose.21-Nov-09 11:55
4546HenrikJanko, I liken the Amiga situation to flying the world's most advanced airplane into the ground and surviving passengers fighting on the ground over the twisted unsalvagable pieces, refusing to leave the accident site.21-Nov-09 11:54
4545Janko(I just realized I was at some retro amiga event few years back, so I have seen it)21-Nov-09 11:54
4544PekrAs for me - the situation with REBOL is completly different. Big YES - in 2000 - 200x?, we faced similar thing - REBOL/View update in 18 month, difficult to communicate with RT, some ppl left, as things were not fixed.21-Nov-09 11:53
4543Jankothanks both.. so there is a couple of novels material there ...21-Nov-09 11:52
4542ChrisI wonder if an adequate history has been written. Amiga users generally agree that Amiga was innovative and was ahead of its time. However, assessing which elements made it innovative and how to resurrect it, at least in spirit has long been an emotive issue, particularly with those invested in remnants of its legacy.21-Nov-09 11:52
4541PekrBut - in Amiga case, you CAN'T see any single activity, any vision, any leadership. Amiga means many things to many ppl. In such a situation, it would be probably better, if some time back in 2K, the AOS sources were open-sources. It would probably stop clonning efforts (MorphOS, AROS, Anubis), and community would not fight for which one is better, there would be no split ...21-Nov-09 11:51
4540PekrThen Amiga went thru Escom to Gateway to Amino, to Amiga Inc. (2 incarnation of Amiga Inc.'s actually - Delaware and Washington). Then there was also a community split - some guys started to create MorphOS, a competing product.

But maybe what had Gabriele in mind is, that Amiga is almost dead due-to incompetence of parent company. The company does not communicate, it made some wrong decision (Amiga Anywhere product vs most ppl wanting official AmigaOS to evolve). AmigaOS was made second level product, and its development was subcontracted to Haage&Partner (OS 3.5, OS 3.9). Then there was conflict between the companies and H&P refused to give away sources. So Hyperion stepped in, and was subcontracted to do OS4. The same situation - last month court granted Hyperion right to use AmigaOS trademark, and Amiga Inc. can't use it.

21-Nov-09 11:49
4539GeomolJanko, in short, Commodore went bankrupt because of bad management, and Amiga was left with an uncertain future. The community got divided and people started to use bad language with each other. Like you see with very religious people, that defend their religion with all means against people thinking otherwise.21-Nov-09 11:46
4538PekrFirst thing is, that Commodore went under. Carl, in one interview at the time when he joined Viscorp in order to ressurect it, said that innovation has stopped. So the first aspect was, that what caused Amiga to be succesfull, started to stagnate. The product was mostly repackaged upon the time, but not much technologically advanced. Here I can't see any parallel to Amiga, as R3 is development without compromise. We are even sacrifying compatibility, and trying to get the design right this time ...21-Nov-09 11:46
4537PekrJanko - as for Amiga, there is so many aspects to its decline, that I don't know what had Gabriele in mind.21-Nov-09 11:43
4536JankoI newer saw an Amiga in my life an don't know anything about them ... so what's the story there? They were better than anything but somehow failed to the inferior PC-s or something else?21-Nov-09 11:42
4535ChrisOnly bad if it follows through to the same conclusion...21-Nov-09 11:31
4534GeomolIs it that bad? ;-) Let's learn from all this.21-Nov-09 11:28
4533Janko(I guess rebol .. so in what way or why??)21-Nov-09 11:28
4532Jankowhat's turning to Amiga?21-Nov-09 11:27
4531GabrieleSo, sadly, Romano was right... it's all turning to a second Amiga...21-Nov-09 11:25
4530Geomolgroup = world21-Nov-09 11:16
4529GeomolI named the group wrong. I should have written:

Talk in R3-GUI started 3-Oct-2008. The reason R3-GUI didn't get much attention? I guess, the same reason many didn't went to R3 chat.

21-Nov-09 11:15
4528Pekr(not just by me = not only by me)21-Nov-09 9:48
4527PekrGeomol :-) There were two worlds - R3-alpha - crowdy, lots of talks, there was really much of noise (not just by me), as it was the period, where Carl e.g. disappeared for some period of time. But then there was another world - VID3.4 related, called R3-GUI, there's just 9 ppl ...21-Nov-09 9:48
4526PekrI could understand it some 2-3 years earlier. But now so close to beta, with host code soon to be released to first group of testers (Max, Cyphre, Brian, according to docs), I don't really don't understand what some ppl are questioning here. Last year has seen reboot in the R3 development attitude. Gee, 80+ tickets fixed monthly, Carl and Brian taking care for each ticket, anyone can influence the development and design, etc.21-Nov-09 9:46
4525PekrHenrik - I don't even have problem with existence of a clone (if such clone would be clone of the interpretter and used Host code, so that we could have swap-in solution). I don't have problem with things being open-source at all. But - what I am looking for is - project management. It is not enough to just state - let's support Boron, cause it takes too long for RT to finish the project.

Things should be balanced. Hence I ask only for one things - someone stating A (e.g. Boron), should be able to also state B (many questions, as - 1) why do we expect the project will draw any attention, even even Orca did not succeed here? 2) where are our resources available? Who is willing and has enough of time to contribute, so that we don't wait another 3 years for such a solution? 3) Will it be 100% compatible to official future product - R3? If not, isn't it a risk? We already face R3 vs R2 incompatibility. Do we need another layer?)

21-Nov-09 9:43
4524GeomolTalk in R3-Alpha started 3-Oct-2008. The reason R3-Alpha didn't get much attention? I guess, the same reason many didn't went to R3 chat.21-Nov-09 9:41
4523HenrikAll I see here is failure to realize what R3 is about and why it's dangerous to clone or fork it. If it were simply a programming language then it wouldn't be much of a big deal, because other languages are in a similar state of confusing disarray. Programmers are used to having to select an implementation of a language. It would be bad, but it wouldn't be terrible. REBOL has the luxury of not being in this state. Since R3 is an OS-like platform, much more is at stake, because people may decide not to be interested in R3's biggest features at all.

Extensions and host code opens up a big employment gap that is potentially never filled, if people decide impatiently to just clone REBOL, if they are unhappy with a particular aspect of R3, because they didn't either study it hard enough, don't realize how hard Carl is working on servicing exactly those people or just can't wait 2 months for that feature to be implemented or this and that bug to be fixed.

Having 10 REBOL alternatives diminishes the much needed authority of the original REBOL and it diminishes the authority Carl has over the language. REBOL can't grow without that authority. That's also why things like Linux isn't doing any better than it is, because of massive re-inventing of the same crap over and over again slightly differently, because people in that environment haven't had an ultimate design authority to work against. We have that here and we must not lose it. That is what allows REBOL to grow way beyond other platforms.

But I realize also that such growth is not in many people's interest or within their grasp. They just want a turd polished in a different color rather than wait for the flower to grow.

This is one case where evolution is not needed. Intelligent design is needed.

21-Nov-09 9:36
4522PekrYou can apply "talk talk talk" to yourself as well :-) I can bet that you don't have the right thing to say. Or you might try to define actions RT or the community should take, to bring any REBOL advancement on-board.21-Nov-09 9:29
4521PekrAs I said - I don't care anymore.21-Nov-09 9:28
4520PekrYes, and there was the second world - R3 GUI, and Carl invited me, because top 10 developers did not provide much of responses. That world was imo very well focused, only handset of ppl there. That contradicts your claims ...21-Nov-09 9:28
4519GeomolTalk talk talk isn't solving many things. Saying the right things in little words can be a benefit sometimes.21-Nov-09 9:15
4518GeomolPekr, please. Log into R3-Alpha and look in the old talks (also before you were invited there). You'll find many posts from me. I often choose not to talk, when the noise level go up. When you entered R3-Alpha, the noise level raised a great deal, so you will find fewer post from me at the time forward.21-Nov-09 9:14
4517Maximthis is not advocacy... I'm not talking about REBOL.... :-P21-Nov-09 3:09
4516Grahamadvocacy ..21-Nov-09 3:09
4515Maximthe fact that it uses http, html and js... doesn't make it different from any other stupid dumb terminal.21-Nov-09 3:08
4514MaximI just had a remark about chrome OS.... its really nothing very new... its a 50 year old concept.21-Nov-09 3:08
4513GrahamAnyway this should be moved to advocacy21-Nov-09 3:07
4512Maximlet there be 10 REBOL alternatives... :-) that will just attract more people to the style.. and ultimately to REBOL.21-Nov-09 3:07
4511GrahamUnless you use your hand while playing soccer21-Nov-09 3:06
4510MaximI speak both french and english... and well, neither is evil ;-)21-Nov-09 3:05
4509Maximand Boron is just another language. in any case, we can learn cool things from it and add them to R3.21-Nov-09 3:05
4508KajYup, that' s why I use it. And anything else that works21-Nov-09 3:04
4507MaximR2 still exists and works...21-Nov-09 3:03
4506Maximmy god... people... calm down... :-D21-Nov-09 3:02
4505KajIf you say so21-Nov-09 3:02
4504Pekryes, of course, I live my life on a magic mushrooms :-)21-Nov-09 3:01
4503KajYou, too, are seeing things into this that aren' t there21-Nov-09 3:00
4502Pekr... because - I was there, daily. And if I wanted, I could talk to Carl, on almost a daily basis, privately. Anyone could ...21-Nov-09 2:55
4501PekrGeomol - please stop complaining about R3 alpha or R3 GUI world. You were one of the invited top developers, yet you was one of those failing to provide a feedback. I remember how you all preferred to chat about science here, instead of providing any reasonable input. So what actually are you complaining about?21-Nov-09 2:53
4500PekrHenrik is totally right. Even if R3 would be 100% open-sourced, the same ppl would still find some excuses to complain about. Screw them :-)21-Nov-09 2:49
4499PekrThat open source idiocism really plays on my nerves. So ppl have Orca for 4 years? Isn't it open source version of REBOL? Yet we can hear, that if R3 is not fully open sourced, it will not be accepted. Accepted by whom? A GPL freaks? Should we care? I have really no respect to such ppl. Where is Orca nowadays? That open-source-being-a-cure-for-all-problems is really turning into being rudiculous21-Nov-09 2:45
4498PekrI can't believe I can read reactions dismissing the effort. And I really stop to care ...21-Nov-09 2:43
4497PekrKaj - I am really not sure we have to hear such a crap ... anyone carrying a brain in his head CAN properly follow what R3 development is all about, how MUCH energy is being put into that. Anything else is a junk ...21-Nov-09 2:42
4496BrianHDesign process broke down, and needed a reboot. We know how to build a language, but we weren't as good at building a working community development model that was compatible with the language design standards. All better now :)21-Nov-09 2:34
4495KajThis is the first time I hear there was a development reset. Why was that?21-Nov-09 2:12
4494KajThat's easy then. Carl hasn' t come up with a license yet, so he would have to use the Boron license21-Nov-09 2:11
4493BrianHThis is why Mono and .NET work so well together: Their open source portions can be used by each other. This is why more and more of Microsoft's development tools are being released with open source licenses.21-Nov-09 0:56
4492BrianHAs for Boron, I'm all for it, as long as it is license comopatible. The ORCA license precluded any sharing with REBOL (the license choice seemed to do that deliberately), so any work on it was necessarily divisive. Which is why it hasn't really gone anywhere. If Boron chooses a open source license that is compatible with R3's open source license, then there will be no reason to choose one instead of the other - you can choose both, and have work on one benefit both.21-Nov-09 0:54
4491BrianHIn January of 2008 (more or less, maybe as early as Nov 2007) we restarted the project. Except for some port model stuff, everything we've done on R3 has been done since then. That is why we say that R3 has only taken 2 years so far.21-Nov-09 0:50
4490BrianHThe reason was that AltME didn't turn out to be a good tool for having a focused development discussion. Add more than 5 people and it degenerated into useless flamewars. This is why a separate R3 world was created with just 5 people in it, until we could get to the point of creating a development communications infrastructure that would be able to handle more developers. That was R3 chat (formerly known as DevBase) and CureCode (formerly planned as BugBase, but implemented by a third-party instead).21-Nov-09 0:47
4489GeomolI can only speak for myself. I found lots of the discussion in R3-Alpha good and giving, but I also found the actual progress unstructured. I saw it like building a very tall building (like a skyscraper), where you work on all stores at the same time. I prefer to start from the ground, make every store solid and finished before moving on to the next store.21-Nov-09 0:45
4488GrahamAnd the other reason was .. that Carl didn't actually turn up much in r3alpha world21-Nov-09 0:44
4487GeomolThe reason for it dying out? Carl created R3 chat and moved there. Many didn't follow, I guess.21-Nov-09 0:41
4486GrahamAnd the reason was??21-Nov-09 0:40
4485GeomolFor people reading this, that might not know. There was a R3-Alpha AltME world running from june 2007 with lots of discussion incl. many well known REBOL developers. The chat take up more than 9 MB of disk space. Activity died out early this year, and some of it continued in R3 chat.21-Nov-09 0:39
4484KajSure, but ORCA was triple-overloaded, including another language21-Nov-09 0:14
4483GrahamBorat is better20-Nov-09 23:54
4482Chris(which, by the way is a far less elegant name than Orca)20-Nov-09 23:53
4481ChrisI wouldn't say it's competing, more complementary. An open source clone is still dependent on the original for direction, but has a place for those that require open source all the way. Would that effort be better directed to R3? That depends on what is driving the developer behind Boron.20-Nov-09 23:52
4480KajIf you were to scratch old Amiga faithfuls from this community, I' m afraid I would be the only one remaining20-Nov-09 23:50
4479KajAgain, that' s your opinion. R3 is not just vying for your support20-Nov-09 23:48
4478HenrikI'm seeing that Geomol finds that it's a good idea to have a competing project to REBOL 3. Given the way R3 is designed with as many open source parts as possible and as many extensible parts as possible to provide a platform for potentially hundreds of developers to extend in nearly any direction, I'd say that idea makes little sense.20-Nov-09 23:47
4477KajYou' re seeing things into this that aren' t there20-Nov-09 23:45
4476HenrikWell, screw them too, because it doesn't sounds like there is any appreciation of why Carl has designed R3 in the way he has.20-Nov-09 23:44
4475KajGood for you. Now all the other programmers will say screw REBOL, unless you can wave a do-it-yourself option at them20-Nov-09 23:43
4474Henrikwell, screw that. I'm not interested in those alternatives. I'm interested in R3.20-Nov-09 23:42
4473KajThis is not the place to discuss this, but another, strategic issue remains. The modern open source climate around programming languages will never accept R3 without there being an open source alternative20-Nov-09 23:41
4472HenrikThe thing I find so strange is that people are so unaware of the development pace of R3 which is why it makes so little sense to work on competing projects.20-Nov-09 23:39
4471KajI said I don' t want to repeat this discussion...20-Nov-09 23:37
4470HenrikThere was a promised date? When?20-Nov-09 23:36
4469KajPromised; review that link Geomol posted above20-Nov-09 23:36
4468GrahamPromised or predicted?20-Nov-09 23:36
4467KajIf R3 had showed up as promised, I would never have had to bother with ORCA and Boron20-Nov-09 23:35
4466KajI don' t want to repeat this discussion, but Carl' s effort is not the point. It' s being three years late compared to the promised date20-Nov-09 23:34
4465HenrikGeomol, I'm not offended. I'm only wondering about the seeming lack of awareness on the amount of energy that Carl has been putting into R3 over the past 3 years and being commnunity members, we should all know, right?20-Nov-09 23:26
4464PeterWoodAnd I for Henrik. He has alos contributed heavily to R3 mainly, but not exclusively, to the GUI so his contribution is not so visible at the moment.20-Nov-09 23:07
4463KajI'll have to put in an exception for Brian here :-)20-Nov-09 22:58
4462KajSplitting efforts is all hypothetical, as everyone else seems to direct their full effort at just talking20-Nov-09 22:54
4461KajI don' t see anyone splitting their effort between R3 and Boron. Carl is working on R3, and Karl is working on Boron. Nobody else is doing much of anything. Carl would never work on Boron and Karl could never work on R3, so nothing is lost20-Nov-09 22:53
4460PekrGeomol - sometimes I wonder about your ignorance(?), sorry. You are very clever guy, so I really wonder, what is the reason to hear argument like in point 2) Henrik is right - who is more informed than the community members? I remember the time when Carl invited me to R3 GUI world. You all gurus were there, yet he had to invite person like me (causing a noise many times), because of lack of input. So what are we complaining to? Replies to blogs are similar matter. Just don't tell me, you are not informed.

Te link to beta project plan - was posted here, was posted in November status update IIRC. Twitter message says, Carl is working on Host code NOW. Yesterday we posted, that Carl reported on R3 chat succesfull separation of Host vs kernel and that he is working on MinGw support. The host code is being worked on NOW.

So how can you post argument like you posted in point 2)? Isn't it a bit ignorant and disrespectfull to those who care to work on R3? How much support do you expect? I do care to remind Carl to update blogs, we do care to spread info even here, yet you claim "do you expect ppl to wait forever?".

And even more so - do YOU expect anyone to wait for mysterious ORCA like project to be closer than R3 is? ORCA actually IS open sourced, for many years. How is that it did not bring competing environment to R2 at least to date? (not to mention its architecture is arcane compared to what R3 provides us?)

We are really small community. Everyone of us, can weight his own free time. So now decide for yourself, where do you put your free time REBOL wise. Boron, or R3? As for me, the answer is clear - my energy goes to project, which currently has chance to be completed in close future. Splitting our efforts at this stage can't bring anything usefull imo ...

20-Nov-09 16:08
4459Geomol1. "You know that our resources are scarce. There are very few REBOL experts and they are all working."

If an expert can't help by delivering C code, which is needed, I guess, then it's better, if that expert use his code elsewhere. (See e.g. Gabriele's last post in "!REBOL3".)

2. "You know that R3's source model will deliver the much needed flexibility in extensions, hosts and open source code."

We still wait to see these things. Do you expect people to wait forever? I can understand, many use their REBOL knowledge and try to create something similar themselves, because they're tired of waiting. If there were alternatives, people didn't have to wait, but could move back and forth between languages. That's happening with many other languages.

3. "You know that R3 development is moving forward at a steady pace."

And it can continue to do that, even if there were competition. Actually competition might speed some things up.

4. "You know there is a clause to put R3 in other people's hands, if RT bows under."

No, I didn't know that.

5. "You know that the R3 design proces relies heavily on one single reference."

Yes, and that put REBOL developers in what situation? With alternatives and competition, how would the situation look? I don't think, it needs to be a worse situation than the present one with alternatives.

6. "You know that RT can't work any one bit faster if a different developer with similar goals comes in to compete."

No, I didn't know that. Also if the alternative were open source?

7. "You know that dividing REBOL in separate implementations will kill one of its main advantages"

So there can be only one? We have R1, R2 and possible R3 in the future. R3 seems to be not very backward compatible, when it comes out. What if there came an alternative, that was more compatible with R2, than what R3 will be? That can't be bad for all our present code written in R2.

I'm sorry, if I offended you, I didn't mean to. I like change. And I like good design.

20-Nov-09 15:21
4458PekrAh, Kumite :-)20-Nov-09 15:17
4457GeomolHm, I didn't know, I knew so much. ;-) Should I reply or not? I'm not really in a mood for a deep debate. I'll comment each in short, and that's it.20-Nov-09 15:12
4456Henrik"I think, language competition is needed."

I completely disagree. It sounds to me like you're not in touch with what R3 is about, which I don't understand since you have such a great insight to REBOL programming:

- You know that our resources are scarce. There are very few REBOL experts and they are all working. - You know that R3's source model will deliver the much needed flexibility in extensions, hosts and open source code. - You know that R3 development is moving forward at a steady pace. - You know there is a clause to put R3 in other people's hands, if RT bows under. - You know that the R3 design proces relies heavily on one single reference. - You know that RT can't work any one bit faster if a different developer with similar goals comes in to compete. - You know that dividing REBOL in separate implementations will kill one of its main advantages

What can competition possibly give us?

Diversity is what brought Linux into the sad state it's in today.

20-Nov-09 14:45
4455Geomol"I think the development of Boron is a bit of a shame. The effort should be directed towards R3 instead."

Isn't diversity a good thing in many cases? There isn't really any other REBOL-like, modern, internet-ready language out there used at large. (I also think about the "despair and anger" about programming languages, that was linked in the "Chat (not web public)" group.) I think, competition might actually be a good thing in this situation.

I was looking for, what project "Wildman" really is/was, and I found this page: That's written 5-January-2007. I think, language competition is needed.

20-Nov-09 12:59

ChromeOS as a VMware image

20-Nov-09 10:01
4453PekrThis is nice summary from Thom Holwerda - 9:50
4452GrahamHardly any chat here anyway these days ...20-Nov-09 9:30
4451Pekrhmm, tech news group .... we are OT here :-)20-Nov-09 9:17
4450PekrI already proposed to Carl, to release also browser plugin code, apart from Host code. I think that R3 plugin might be here in few months, if someone picks-up development. Wrapper to NS API will just be the same.20-Nov-09 9:16
4449PekrIf VID3 is so cool as it looks so far, and makes building apps rather easy (instead of tonnes of html and JS), we might as well use them to our advantage, via plugin ....20-Nov-09 9:11
4448GrahamI expect that they will add support for 9:11
4447PekrThey are really not any special, they are just google. Look at Moblin (Intel sponsored effort), it uses similar paradigm of simplified desktop. Those systems are good for some TVs, set-top-boxes, etc.20-Nov-09 9:10
4446PekrChromiumOS comes at the end of 2010, not for your general HW, but only from some HW partners. Anything can happen till then. Other than that - why it should be a threat? We can make plugin, and live in their space. If it allows only webapps, not linux native ones, plugged into Chrome "desktop" via some API, then it is total crap ...20-Nov-09 9:09
4445GrahamWouldn't want R3 to be irrelevant before it was even finished.20-Nov-09 9:07
4444GrahamAnyway, this is a threat to the traditional desktop .. I thought we should just do a threat assessment :)20-Nov-09 9:04
4443GrahamA lot of my stuff I use lives in the cloud now ... Evernote ( just recently installed ), Dropbox, Googledocs, Googlewave, my own EMR app ...20-Nov-09 9:00
4442PekrTo answer your questions towards REBOL browser plugin:

- we don't know, if they will allow plugins, do we? But if they do, we can create one, why not?

- Josh disappeared long time ago, security doc he was supposed to work on, was never finished. But most probably non-ability to properly secure browser plugin was one of the reasons why R3 effort started ...

- with browser plugin, you better don't allow call to local system, nor any call to system API. So the question is - what happens to 'call and 'extensions? Even if you would display security requestor, it might be considered a threat, as users are kind of dumb, and many will click YES anyway. So the only chance probably will be to build special Hosts, including everything we need for a plugin

- there might be some special version of plugin, with signing and certificates, so e.g. RT would inspect the extension, and claim it being secure. But I still don't know, if it is going to be enough ...

20-Nov-09 8:57
4441TomBonyour wheat also graham...20-Nov-09 8:56
4440Grahamthe dinosaurs flourished for hundreds of million of years .. that was a biological monoculture20-Nov-09 8:56
4439TomBonthere is a difference pekr. in the cloud only one type of malware is nessesary to make a total collapse possible. ;-) transfer responsibility to a third party doesn't solve the problem. technological mono culture has the same advantages and disadventages like the biological one.20-Nov-09 8:54
4438Grahambut .. using your ntb, do you encrypt sensitive files again?20-Nov-09 8:53
4437Grahamthat wasn't the point .. it was an allegory20-Nov-09 8:52
4436PekrI have a Dell ntb with Bitlocker capable chip - so I run encrypted storage on my Vista for 2.5 years already ... nothing new here ...20-Nov-09 8:51
4435Grahamif the filing system is encrypted .. do you have to encrypt your files again?20-Nov-09 8:50
4434GrahamEvery application will be sandboxed.20-Nov-09 8:50
4433PekrIn regards to what I said - is there really a difference to security model? Because cloud just means - my hardisk is not in my machine, but somewhere else. But still there is an OS, apps, and still there is a user trying to click on everything you put in front of his eyes :-)20-Nov-09 8:48
4432PekrGraham - Google & co are teh mafia :-) There is no cloud, and there is no Chromium OS - they are just fooling us with marketing ;-) The cloud is - internet, and storing my data not on my device. Once there will be a time, when whole that cloud crap collapses, and you will want your local storage once again :-) And Chromium OS? What is that? Linux and Chrome browser on top of that ...20-Nov-09 8:47
4431GrahamWasn't that the issue with the firefox plugin .. that the security model was never completed ...20-Nov-09 8:41
4430GrahamIf the OS is going to handle the security side .. does this mean that the browser plugin can afford to worry less about security ??20-Nov-09 8:41
4429GrahamSo, how is rebol going to fit in this?20-Nov-09 8:39
4428GrahamI can see this as being very attractive to users tired of being threatened by every piece of malware out there.20-Nov-09 8:39
4427GrahamViruses, malware, phishing etc are all forcing us to a self healing OS like Chrome where everything lives on the cloud.20-Nov-09 8:38
4426GrahamThe thing is, the mafia and other internet criminals are dictating how we use our PCs.20-Nov-09 8:37
4425Henrikis the license GPL? In that case that would explain some things.20-Nov-09 8:37
4424PekrOf course we can't prevent ppl from anything. Boron might be good test-base for the interpreter itself ...20-Nov-09 8:36
4423PekrGraham - exactly - I think that we have many things to do - port R3 to many platforms, create browser plugin, etc. There is where our energy should be put. R3 is free. How more cheap you want it to have?20-Nov-09 8:36
4422PekrR2, architecture wise, in comparison to R3, is so old school, that it is not even funny to compare. Now having Orca/Boron following R2 model would be a mistake too. I think that if Karl wants Boron to succeed, then why not to use R3 host, and just re-create the interpreter (a DLL)? Of course we know nothing about the licence of R3 yet, maybe such a step will be prohibited?20-Nov-09 8:34
4421Grahamthe old saying .. united we conquer, divided we fall20-Nov-09 8:33
4420Pekrexactly. I can understand open-source freaks. But open-sourcing something is not a mantra. Look at AROS, look at Orca - how is that it has not more users, than official distros?20-Nov-09 8:33
4419HenrikI think the development of Boron is a bit of a shame. The effort should be directed towards R3 instead.20-Nov-09 8:32
4418GrahamMaybe that other Karl ( Robillard ) can switch his efforts from Boron to wildman instead :)20-Nov-09 8:30
4417HenrikI guess it should be wildman20-Nov-09 8:30
4416Grahamlet's see .. there's one Carl .. and an unfjinished r3 .. and you want to restart wildman? :)20-Nov-09 8:28
4415Henrikwell, that's just too limited for us rebolers :-)20-Nov-09 8:27
4414GrahamWhat's wrong with running everything inside a rebol plugin ?20-Nov-09 8:26
4413HenrikI guess we'll just have to build a REBOL/OS now.20-Nov-09 8:22
4412GrahamThey'll have to jazz up the rebol home page then :)20-Nov-09 8:20
4411Henrikhmm... so REBOL isn't going to be terribly interesting in ChromeOS unless it can get into the browser.20-Nov-09 8:15
4410PekrGoogle unveils ChromeOS - 5:10
4409PekrMicrosoft to open-up compilers - 5:08
4408Gabrielea stateful http...13-Nov-09 10:41
4407HenrikWell, who are the largest contributors to RFC? Without companies researching these things rather than universities, then we won't move forward.13-Nov-09 10:13
4406AshleyI'll take SPDY and compiled JS over the alternative any day. Others are free to stick with HTTP, slow JS and 9600 baud modems if they so choose ...13-Nov-09 10:11
4405BrianH...Services. No Google needed.12-Nov-09 23:23
4404BrianHThat AJAX that people like so much now: It came from Microsoft at first, and that doesn't make it greater. So did SOAP, and that doesn't make it suck less. Where it came from doesn't matter, all that matters is whether it benefits you and you are allowed to use it. In this case, I don't yet know whether it would benefit us (though it looks promising) but it does look like we would be allowed to use it (they probably can't patent it if they release it this way). If it is good, it would help REBOL/12-Nov-09 23:23
4403BrianHAnd it is too soon to see if the protocol would be accepted just because it came from Google, or because it is good on its own merits, or *at all*, because it hasn't been accepted at all yet, just proposed. And since it was proposed I will look at it. If it sucks, I won't give it a second thought. Who gives a crap that it came from Google?12-Nov-09 23:18
4402BrianHThe protocol is the Tech News. All the rest of the complaints about Google are not related to this Tech News.12-Nov-09 23:14
4401PekrYou talk about the protocol all the time, I talk about generally Google submitting another thing and world swallowing anything they drop onto us. The protocol might be actually good. I just hate things being accepted just because they are provided by the "beloved one".12-Nov-09 23:13
4400BrianHThis is not cloud crap. It has nothing to do with lock-in. THis is a much lower-level protocol than that.12-Nov-09 23:11
4399BrianHAn open protocol doesn't have to be used with Google servers.12-Nov-09 23:10
4398PekrThe lock in is in mentality. All the cloud crap, not having the date at my location everything on server. Welcome matrix :-)12-Nov-09 23:10
4397BrianHI don't give a crap about Google culture. If the protocol is good (and it looks good so far) I'll write the R3 support for it.12-Nov-09 23:09
4396PekrIn comparison to MS or IBM I can see no top designers in google, having actually a vision, a complete one. They throw things here or there, they can do whatever (almost unlimited resources), and you can bet, that they lead us to lock-in ....12-Nov-09 23:09
4395BrianHThey can't even patent this protocol since they have already released the description of how this works *and* reference code.12-Nov-09 23:08
4394Pekryes, you can see it in reactions. I have much deeper respect to proprietary guys like IBM or MS lately. Their technologies give me total picture of what I can use in our company. Well designed stuff. Those things might be complex, but well engineered (WebSphere). I will always be one refusing the servility. I have the same problem with Apple (Jobs). There is no problem with their products, but the problem is with the attitude and it starts to show. Even if Jobs introduces new icon on the desktop, he would get fanatical following. I can see the same wave of google fanatics emerging. The so called "google culture" is ... hyped.12-Nov-09 23:08
4393BrianHI read the same OSNews coments that you did, and these people need to learn to read the article before commenting.12-Nov-09 23:04
4392BrianHIf people start getting pissed off at Google for actually having and using the money to fund research *which they are giving away*, then we are doomed. The protocol looks good so far. If it sucks, it should get ignored (see SOAP). If it doesn't suck, it should be adopted. There is no reason to give a crap about "domination" because Google isn't trying to control network protocols, just to improve them for all.

It makes sense to complain about their domination in search and advertising, and their kowtowing to local tyrants at times. But this is not one of those cases. They are giving the protocol away for free. They aren't tying it to a platform like MS. It is even encrypted end-to-end, so the tyrant governments can't easily read it. They even are providing an open-source reference model, *and* asking for advice on implementation strategies.

There is no down side for us here. The only upside for them is not exclusively for them: Anyone who implements a protocol like this would gain the same benefit. For that matter, there is no way for them to gain from this over anyone else in the only ways which they do dominate: search and advertising, or even online apps. If they were closing this protocol then maybe they could gain over others, but they are opening it so it is only gain for all.

12-Nov-09 23:02
4391PekrSo you can't see it? There is no concept in google, just slow domination. They are either dumb enough, not having some top level gurus/designer, not having complete idea, or they are way too much clever - throwsing various things at us, slowly leading to their total domination.12-Nov-09 22:52
4390Pekrif it would come from any other company, it would get ignored. The same goes for Chrome - it is in no way unique, just a rip-off of others, plus minus few things done differently (tasks per tab).12-Nov-09 22:50
4389BrianHSorry, "dictating" standards? There is no dictation here. It's a proposal, a Request For Comment (though less formal than an RFC yet).12-Nov-09 22:50
4388PekrThe downsize is in google, being "always in beta", dictating "standards", just from the multibillion position12-Nov-09 22:48
4387BrianHI see commenters claim that this is a ripoff of Opera Unite (it isn't in any way anything like Opera Unite), and others claim that Google is trying to get others to do their work (misunderstanding the concept of open standards).12-Nov-09 22:48
4386BrianHI don't get that statement. This is a network protocol, which they came up with (aka: innovation) and they are providing as a proposed open standard with an open source reference implementation (read: giving, not taking). Network protocols require both ends of the connection to talk the same protocol, so if they want others to talk to their servers, they need for the others to understand and use the protocol. Which they are providing for free.

This is an example of best practices, and of Google being a good corporate citizen (which they aren't always). The protocol is even pro-privacy (take that, China and Iran!). It even seems easy enough to implement that we could build it into the HTTP scheme of R3. So, where is the downside of this, exactly?

12-Nov-09 22:44
4385Pekr 22:26
4384PekrHehe, ppl seem to smash them, having enough of the We-are-gods-work-for-us-as-we-have-nothing-innovative-ourselves-we-just-ripp-others-work ...12-Nov-09 22:26
4383Pekrhmm, where does google lead us? Thru averaging web technologies to advancements? so screw the standards, let's go the google way.12-Nov-09 22:22

Google experiment with a new protocol to speed webserver transfers up about 2x from HTTP.

12-Nov-09 19:39
4381GeomolPretty cool optical technology coming next year: 13:18
4380BrianHHTC is still on Win Mobile, but it doesn't matter: They write their own UI and just port it from OS to OS. Right now HTC has Win and Android phones (the vast majority being Win), but they could drop both easily if they want.11-Nov-09 19:19
4379PekrMore on Bada here - , http://www.bada.com11-Nov-09 15:18
4378PekrIt seems Win Mobile is doomed. MS woke up too late. Sony and HTC completly moved off of Win Mobile. Nokia probably too. And now MS has mostly lost Samsung too ...11-Nov-09 14:39
4377amacleodA lot of negative talk about too meny mobile OS's already but the phone market is a lot different than PC Market...with contracts every one or two years most people trade in their phone at most every 2 years and each time re-evaluate the field (some of anyway). This gives new guys a chance to enter the fray. If you got somethng unique you may gain share quickly.11-Nov-09 14:14
4376PekrAnother new Mobile OS - this time from Samsung. The OS is called Bada - 5:50
4375AdrianSintended to be a systems programming language11-Nov-09 1:54
4374AdrianSnew Google Go language - 1:53
4373amacleodEverytime I've used it it seems bloated, bogged down and slow..9-Nov-09 0:37
4372amacleodIts this very thinking that makes OO less than a desirable application(s)...9-Nov-09 0:36
4371BrianH"the OOMouse, the first multi-button application mouse" Those who forget the 1990s are doomed to repeat them.8-Nov-09 21:28

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